IR Data Series #2 – Equity and Data in Guided Pathways

Welcome to the second installment of the IR data series related to Guided Pathways. By now, you have likely seen and/or heard a presentation about the equity framework informing EvCC work and its dimensions: aspiration, access, achievement, economic progress, and engagement. While the limited space of this blog post prohibits me from reviewing the underlying concepts of and explicating these dimensions, I think it is important to discuss what infusing equity means from a data and measurement standpoint.

Essentially, infusing equity means disaggregating data and trying to identify trends and patterns among different student and pathway characteristics. This is not a perfect way to examine equity; quantitative data and numbers don’t tell us everything, and inequities are rooted in broader systems. However, examining seven years’ worth of patterns (which we did for the data summit) helps to reveal inequitable patterns. It is important to interrogate these patterns and what they reveal about our institutions. Doing so helps us determine how our institution can work to achieve greater equity. The focus in doing this is on EvCC’s capacity and performance, not on the abilities of certain groups of students. This is an important point of emphasis. Identifying inequities and performance gaps identifies the ways in which we are underserving different groups of students, not on deficiencies of these students. It is up to EvCC to ensure that all students are successful; therefore, the equity gaps we uncover are a reflection on our ability to serve and educate all students.

Throughout this series, I will disaggregate our data by race, sex, age, and socioeconomic status. There is inherent imprecision in doing so as categories can be reductionist and labels are charged. However, when dealing with broader patterns, we must do this to identify how we are serving and underserving our students. This focus on equity is also a priority at the state level, as new recommendations for Student Achievement Initiative (SAI) focus on closing equity gaps for historically underrepresented and underserved racial and ethnic groups (African American or Black, Hispanic or Latinx, American Indian or Alaska Native, and Pacific Islander or Native Hawaiian), as well as low-income students. The focus on these groups also aligns with our own internal goals and strategies for Strategic Enrollment Management.

Finally, I want to share a helpful description that I think encapsulates what we want to see in our data if we make progress toward equity: “As data on academic achievement and other student outcomes are disaggregated and analyzed, one sees high comparable performance for all identifiable groups of learners, and achievement and performance gaps are virtually non-existent” (Intercultural Development Research Association). The data I will share in the coming weeks will exhibit gaps, and the imperative of our work moving forward is to increase performance for all students while closing these gaps.

Program Mapping: Who, what, when, and why?

During Opening Week you hopefully heard the phrase “program mapping” several times. What is this? Guided Pathways has four “pillars” for its work: getting students on a path, clarifying the path, keeping students on a path, and ensuring learning. Program mapping as we are implementing it relates to the second and last pillars.

We serve a large number of first generation college students. Our current “cafeteria model” of college, where myriad choices are presented as equal, may be more of a detriment than a benefit. Data shared by Sean Gehrke from IR showed that the average student at EvCC is taking about 29 credits more than the 90 needed to finish an associates degree; that’s two full-time quarters. One hypothesis of the Guided Pathways model is that we can reduce this number by making clear to students at the beginning what the path to completion looks like, reducing the number of extraneous courses taken.

Another key idea behind program mapping is to take a step back and do what Peg taught us to do in our courses: design with the end in mind. The majority of our students come here with the goal of a certificate or degree that leads to a career. If the students’ goal is a career then we can help by creating a pathway for them that includes knowledge, skills, and abilities that would contribute to success in that career. For example, Brett Kuwada has pointed out that because Engineering companies place great importance on group work, we might point those students towards CMST& 230 – Small Group Communication to fulfill one of their Humanities requirements. I frequently try to steer ELL students to Beth Peterson’s DRMA 130 class – Improv and Sketch Comedy because I know it will help them feel comfortable with speaking conversationally and with understanding idioms and nuances of American culture. I don’t know if any of them take me up on that suggestion, but I suggest it because I think it will help them in many ways, including applying for a job. These kinds of things wouldn’t be requirements but rather default suggestions we could give students in the pathways we advise.

This work will contribute to future revisions to curriculum guides and to the logic we will build into the advising software we implement in the next couple years. Program mapping is a key step in a process to take some of the planning burden out of the advisor role and make room for one-on-one connections regarding personal, academic, and career goals.

The process of program mapping will look something like this:

Phase 1 (started during Tuesday of Opening Week): 

Phase 2 (choose one: Oct 9, 10, 11, 12 @ 2:30-4:30pm or Oct 13 @ 10am-12pm and 1-3pm):

  • Work as a program mapping team through a learning inventory packet, finishing by end of fall quarter
    • Build foundation elements for mapping: identify knowledge, skills, and abilities needed for careers
    • Identify high impact practices and other instructional elements that benefit students
    • Review program outcomes as it relates to what we expect our students to do “out there” that we are responsible for “in here”

Phase 3 (winter quarter)

  • Work across departments to figure out how we can leverage the core distribution requirements to meet our program outcomes
  • Complete program maps by April 30, 2018 in time to report to College Spark

If you haven’t already, sign up for a program mapping team. Staff and administrators are welcome to sign up, too. While it will be critical to have at least one pathway expert in each team, mixing of perspectives will yield some great insights. That also gives us a chance to work more with folks in different parts of campus. The time commitment here will be two hours at a workshop you attend with your team in October, a couple hours after that to finish any work that wasn’t completed there, and another two hour workshop in the winter quarter that involves heavy cross-campus discussion about course recommendations for distribution requirements.

Data Guiding our Guided Pathways Efforts – IR Data Series #1

Greetings from the Institutional Research (IR) office! I am Sean Gehrke, the director of IR here at EvCC, and throughout the fall quarter I am going to be contributing posts to the Guided Pathways (GP) blog regarding data we are using and tracking as part of our GP efforts. These posts are a fantastic opportunity for the EvCC community to see the baselines we are working from as we undergo this important institutional transformation.

If you are unfamiliar with Guided Pathways, I recommend you read up on it here and here.

The impetus for these blog posts was the GP Data Summit we hosted on August 8, 2017 in Jackson Conference Center. At the summit, I engaged more than 50 staff, faculty, and students around the baseline data we have collected related to GP. I may be biased, but I think we had invigorating conversations about student success and equity gaps that our data revealed. I’d like to think that these conversations served as an additional call-to-action for the individuals in the room to engage in GP so that we can improve our outcomes for all students.

In the summit, we reviewed data from two different sources: a) a dashboard provided by the State Board of Community and Technical Colleges (SBCTC), and b) a scorecard curated by the IR office with local measures of student success. The SBCTC dashboard provides broad, long-term measures that help give us some key baselines (e.g., completion, transfer, employment). We will be able to see the impact from our GP efforts on this dashboard in the years to come. The EvCC GP Scorecard is curated with internal IR data and offers our first ability to disaggregate both long-term and short-term measures by pathway and other student characteristics. We will be using the EvCC GP Scorecard to track our progress from the beginning of our efforts with GP. The measures on the GP scorecard include the following:

  • Enrollment patterns
  • Average credits earned in a) first quarter and b) first year
  • Enrollment in college-level math and English in the first quarter
  • Pass rates in college-level math and English in the first year
  • Retention rates (fall-to-winter and fall-to-fall)
  • Four-year (200%) completion rates
  • Average and median credits per degree

During the fall quarter, I will be sharing our scorecard data on these measures, as well as some trends found on the SBCTC dashboard. For now, I wanted to take this time to welcome you to the series. When I post next week, I will touch on how equity is infused into our GP data work before posting about our data in the coming weeks.

Guided Pathways to Justice and Equity?

You may not be surprised to know that within Guided Pathways we have the Equity Subcommittee. EvCC has done significant work in terms of diversity and equity in the last decade, though perhaps with a stronger emphasis on diversity.  So why do we need a special subcommittee to talk about equity?  It turns out that diversity is easier to achieve than equity.  Diversity is something we can readily quantify and measure.  How many ________ people do we have?  If the number is high enough, it’s easy to check the diversity box and think, “Mission accomplished.”  Equity goes deeper than just fulfilling a quota, though.

Dafina-Lazarus Stewart’s powerful essay looks at questions of race and diversity within academia, providing insight into ways we’ve thought about diversity and inclusion but missed genuine equity and justice. Stewart argues that in academia we’ve focused on diversity (having various minority groups present) without really paying attention to equity (making sure that the minoritized people have the same status and credence as the dominant groups.)  Stewart offers several illustrations of the difference:

  • “Diversity asks, “Who’s in the room?” Equity responds: “Who is trying to get in the room but can’t? Whose presence in the room is under constant threat of erasure?”
  • Inclusion asks, “Has everyone’s ideas been heard?” Justice responds, “Whose ideas won’t be taken as seriously because they aren’t in the majority?”
  • “Diversity asks, “Isn’t it separatist to provide funding for safe spaces and separate student centers?” Equity answers, “What are people experiencing on campus that they don’t feel safe when isolated and separated from others like themselves?”

Our Guided Pathways work presents an opportunity to think about these questions (and the others in Stewart’s essay) and to examine equity and justice on campus.  As we are evaluating our programs to increase student success, this is a natural time to look at outcomes for all students and see if different groups have different outcomes.  If we find a gap in equity, we have the chance to address it.  Here’s the good news:  Increasing equity doesn’t have to be a nebulous, abstract goal.  We can make simple changes in our practices that will help all of our students to be more successful.  

One step can be to check that your web page and any documents you post online or in Canvas are ADA accessible.  John Melson, Director of Educational Technology, posts “Tuesday Tips for Accessibility” in the Daily Digest each week.  You can find an archive of these tips on the Intranet.

Does your program collect demographic information on students?  You can use this data to see if there are particular groups of students who don’t use your services as much as others do.  Who isn’t coming through your door? The EvCC website has a number of helpful demographic statistics to use as a starting point for comparison.  

There are tools and techniques available specifically for instructors. The website informED offers many suggestions on how to become a culturally sensitive educator.  Instructors can use a variety of teaching strategies and culturally relevant materials to connect better with diverse students.  You can also be on the lookout for professional development opportunities that focus on equity.

In meetings and in the classroom, you can use “amplification” like the women on Obama’s staff to make sure that minority voices are heard.  Reiterate what they say and make sure that the speaker is credited for their ideas.  

Guided Pathways has the potential, if we build it right and well, to increase equity at EvCC.  We have the opportunity to bend our arc closer to justice, going beyond diversity and coming to genuine equity.  But this kind of work does not happen just because we have nice ideas.  Our Guided Pathways work gives us the opportunity to ask important questions and reflect on our practices.   Let’s take this time of change to make sure our institution serves all our students equitably.

 

What’s Happening with Guided Pathways this Spring?

The tulips are in bloom across campus and we’re starting the fourth week of the quarter; it must be time for students to start cramming for the first midterm exam and for us to give you an update on Guided Pathways at EvCC.

Lots of work is happening with Guided Pathways this quarter; much of it centered on participating in the budget development process (check out the youtube video of the Draft #1 share out; GP was the right after Jennifer Howard’s overview), GP Mission/Purpose Development by the Guided Pathways Steering Committee, and reporting to College Spark about the work we’ve been doing in order to meet the May 15 grant deadline. Budget development, grant reporting, and mission/purpose crafting might not be work that makes you leap out of the bed in the morning, excited about the day, however, it’s foundational work that will help us make future progress so we’re digging in, spending the time, and getting it done.

This quarter we are planning a cross pollination conversation bringing together folks who’ve been coming to GP sub-committee meetings (or anyone on campus who is interested) to connect on the global areas of GP development; getting students on a path, clarifying the path, keeping them on a path, and aligning pathways with careers. If you’re on one of the GP sub-committees (Communication, Equity, Advising/First Year Experience, or Technology) and you’ve been wondering when you would connect with the other sub-committees, this is your chance!  Or, if you haven’t made it to a sub-committee meeting but would like to chime in on the GP conversation, this is an opportunity for you as well and open to all employees. Mark your calendar for May 19 from 1-3pm in GWH 386/388 to come catch up with your colleagues and help determine what work will happen next.  

Also new this quarter is our GP Intern!  Samantha Reed, former GP Genius Parking Spot winner and Instructional Support Tech in the EvCC Writing Center, is serving as our intern to fulfill requirements for her Master’s degree program in Higher Education at Central Washington University.  Samantha will be writing future GP blog posts on articles we think speak to the broader issues associated with our GP work, particularly around equity, so keep an eye out for our guest blogger later this quarter!

A conversation about the future of advising at EvCC….

The Guided Pathways Steering Committee has been conducting student Focus Groups this quarter and one of the themes which has emerged in the student feedback is the urgent need to enhance our current offerings in the areas of advising. Every student deserves access to a knowledgeable person for advising during the quarter, between quarters, during the day, in the evening, etc., and we do not currently meet this need from our students’ perspective. As we reflect on the Guided Pathways model, the potential the model has to positively impact students and the increased emphasis on long-term relationship building via advising, the Guided Pathways Steering Committee has assembled a task force to develop a resource document to open a campus discussion of advising.

An initial group participated in creating a first draft of information students need personalized access to as they interface with EvCC. Their work culminated in the list (linked at the end of this post) of the advising pieces which make up the puzzle for students from their initial contact and commitment to the college through graduation, transfer, career, and beyond. It is particularly important to emphasize that this list is created from a student context to help focus our perspective on who we serve and the central purpose of this institution.

The goal of the Guided Pathways (GP) model is for students to have a structured experience which removes barriers to getting on a pathway, staying on a pathway, and learning. In addition, our focus at EvCC is to leverage the GP model to create and sustain an equitable experience for all students. Advising is unequivocally an equity issue. The choices we make about who provides advising and when it is available to students has a direct impact on students’ access, engagement, aspiration, and achievement at EvCC.

The draft list was next coded by item as faculty work, staff work, or work shared by faculty and staff using the lens of the Guided Pathways model. Maximizing student access to the information and relationships they need to thrive at EvCC in an equitable manner is a core value of Guided Pathways and central to the work of the GPSC so these codes represent what could be, not necessarily what is current practice on our campus.

There are some core themes which emerged as we worked through this list of advising needs for students using the lens of the Guided Pathways model.  As with all GP work, we are particularly thoughtful of the first generation student experience and how someone with this background interfaces with EvCC.  These themes include:

  • To ensure quality program advising, program-specific advising is done by faculty.
  • To ensure high standards of equity and quality, it makes sense that helping undecided students choose a pathway is done by faculty or highly trained staff in the Advising Center.
  • To ensure a quality orientation, it makes sense to have Entry Advising, provided by faculty or trained staff, be part of Mandatory Orientation. Whether Entry Advising is provided by faculty or staff specifically trained to provide the relevant information to students, does not impact the goals of the GP model.
  • For ease of access, basic informational questions (How do I register? When is the drop deadline?) should be handled by anyone with access to the relevant knowledge and/or resources, including staff and faculty
  • Issues of potentially legal importance (transcript evaluation, visa/immigration status, financial aid, etc.) should be handled by trained staff in those areas.

We would now like to share this first draft of the advising needs of our students for campus conversation in the form of comments added to our draft document. Is there some item students need which is not listed? Is the code listed (F for Faculty, S for Staff, and F/S for either) by each item appropriate for how we can best serve a first generation student? Are there specific circumstance which we need to list with more detail to get a full picture?  We’re hoping for a robust, cross campus, all employee conversation about future possibilities on how to best serve student advising needs.

Click here to access the list of items drafted and then coded as (F) for Faculty, (S) for Staff, and (F/S) for Faculty and/or Staff.  Note: the file is set up to be viewed by EvCC folks only, so you may need to log into your google (gmail, drive, etc.) account to view the file, prior to clicking.

 

Mid Winter Update

Wow, it’s the 5th week of the quarter already! Let’s catch up on the Guided Pathways work occurring across campus.

January
At the All Instruction meeting I presented on the impact of College 101 (it’s positive and the effect lingers over several quarters for students) and goals specific to faculty for our work Winter quarter. I’m sharing these goals with everyone because these have potential college wide impact and because everyone likes to stay in the loop! The goals include the following:

Update Curriculum Guides
•COLL 101 is required; it is listed?
•Do you have a default quarter-to-quarter schedule of courses?

Consider common 4 year transfer institutions
•Where do students in your discipline transfer to?
•Do your discipline courses transfer? If not, is there a work-around for students?

Update your departmental web page
•Career options
•Transfer Information
•Program Advising appointments via youcanbookme

Consider the equity barriers that exist in your classroom and work to eliminate one

Also during January our Achieving the Dream coaches, Lynda Villanueva and Diane Troyer, met with all campus in two World Café events to facilitate cross campus dialogue on our EvCC results from the Institutional Capacity Assessment Tool (ICAT). Results from the discussion are being recorded and discussed; items pertinent to our GP work will likely be shared here in a later blog post. Personally, it was such a treat to chat with so many people from across campus and to hear the different perspectives on our strengths and work ahead. If you participated, a big THANK YOU for making this such a success!

February
Guess who the winner of the Guided Pathways Genius Parking spot is? Tara Murphy!!! Tara is an Associate faculty in the Cosmetology department and is looking forward to using her reserved parking spot when she comes to main campus for meetings…so don’t park in it! If you would like to put your name in for the raffle for the parking spot for March, plan to participate in Guided Pathways work this month like…

Reading this blog! Hey, you can enter right now! Click here.

Attending any GP sub-committee meeting.
Want to know when the meetings are? We have created an EvCC Guided Pathways calendar that you can view in your google calendar. Just enter EvCC Guided Pathways into the “add a coworker’s calendar” space in your google calendar and you’ll be able to see when and where the meetings are.

Coming to a GP Work Session:
February 10, from 11-12:30 in JCK 106 to discuss Curriculum guide Templates or March 3 from 9-10:30am, location and topic TBD.

Meeting with faculty in your Pathway to create a Default First Quarter Matrix.
Department Chairs met last week and created versions for the Art, Business, Healthcare and Public Safety, and STEM pathways. Click on each name to find out what default courses they’ve listed for students who select the pathway but are unsure of which discipline they will choose. The Humanities, Social Science, and Industry Technologies Pathways are also working on creating default first quarters so join in the conversation! Our goal is to have a draft created by March 3.

That’s it for now! Have a great weekend,

Our Institutional Capacity for Change

Friday you got an email from President Beyer asking you to take the Institutional Capacity Assessment Tool questionnaire. Having useful results from this survey will require the participation of as many of us as possible. I’d like to explain more about what this tool is, why we are using it, what we plan to do with the results, and… fabulous prizes!

When changes are needed to promote student success, what’s EvCC’s capacity for change?

That’s a big question. The Achieving the Dream folks have put together a framework for thinking about this. They look at 7 “capacities”: Equity, Teaching & Learning, Engagement & Communication, Strategy & Planning, Policies & Practices, Leadership & Vision, Data & Technology. If a college is strong in all of these areas then it’s ready to embrace the changes needed to build a student-focused culture.

icat_wheel

This framework fits beautifully with our Guided Pathways work and our larger Achieving the Dream efforts. The goal here is to find out areas in which we’re strong and areas in which we need to improve. To have effective change at an institution-wide level we need to be strong in all seven of these capacities.

The ICAT itself is two demographic questions about your role at the college and then seven pages with questions about each of the capacities. If you don’t know the answers to a question, there’s an “I don’t know” option.

What will we do with the results? The ICAT is a conversation starter. Our intention is to collect people’s ICAT responses through Finals Week (Dec 12) and then compile results and share out with the campus via this blog. Then, we will organize forums to discuss the results. We want to know what people know and don’t know about current efforts. In capacities in which EvCC scores low, we’ll have a great place to start a campus wide conversation about what the source might be. We want to hear from as broad a community as possible. So please encourage everyone on campus to participate (staff, faculty — tenured and associate).

Fabulous Prizes!

Classified staff can put the ICAT down as an hour of work. All faculty and staff who complete the ICAT can email Sharon Ralston to be entered into a raffle. The prize will be a reserved parking spot (location TBD by Facilities and Security) for the month of February

Please help us collect data so we can assess where we are as a college and where we need to put our efforts!

Here’s the link from Pres. Beyer’s email to get to the ICAT:

https://atdcapacity.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe1/form/SV_3V3eplDfIqKEG7X

You will need the authentication code for EvCC: Ua07PdGX.

 

Let’s not call them Meta-majors anymore

I’m at the College Spark Metamajors workshop in Vancouver, WA with many of he Guided Pathways Steering Committee members. We are learning about some great work other colleges are doing which I would like to share with you.

But before I do that, I want to make it publicly known that we’re officially going to change from using the phrase “metamajors” at EvCC. Nina Benedetti is heading the metamajors subcommittee and the first thing that committee did was vote to no longer call them metamajors. Henceforth, we will call them “Pathways”. Why relabel? First, we have a lot of certificates and programs that are not the same as “majors” and second, using a phrase students aren’t familiar with does not make anything more easy to understand. So think PATHWAYS.

Pathways are program groupings, like Health Sciences, Business, etc. The idea is to put similar programs together with a label students pick correctly when they start college. Once we have these groups we can work on developing how students will interact with them and what kind of supports are needed for students within them. Some of the cool things we’re hearing that other colleges are doing:

  • Changing from course catalogs to program maps. Instead of an alphabetical list of courses, students see a 2 or 3 year map of what to take and when to choose a pre-req stacked right when appropriate.
  • Contextualized Math. When a Pathway involves a specific college-level math course, we can design a Pathway that will get students to that specific class as soon as possible, in hopes of ending the current need for students to take up to five quarters of pre-college math before taking that Math 107 or Math 146 course.
  • Pathway-specific College 101 courses. This could be a powerful tool in getting our students on the right pathway and headed to a career. For example, there are so many Health Science careers that our students don’t know about. If we’re going to put potential Health Science students into a College 101 course, why not have that course discuss material about the career options so students can make a more informed decision?

Can you tell we’re eager to get Pathways pinned down so we can start on all the other good stuff we can do within them?

We floated our current draft of Pathways at the Department Chairs meeting last week. The Chairs agreed on the number of Pathways with mild suggestions on renaming of those Pathways, and a possibility to have Humanities separate from Art. There is still work to be done to gain consensus. Our goal is to have the Pathways groupings of programs finalized this quarter.  Much work was completed last spring and we have recent  input to help us finalize this. We will continue to review and assess so think of this as the starting point. Consider these groups as organizational architecture which will help us to move to the next stage of designing how students will interact with them on our website, what they’ll be labeled, how to provide advising and/or counseling support, etc.

Please use the comments space here to give your feedback on the Pathways. Everyone on campus is committed to student success. Please contribute your voice so we can all do this redesign work together.

If you’re interested in working with one of the sub-committees and adding your voice to the discussion in a more regular way, here are the sub-committee meeting dates and times:

Communication
: Nov 14 from 2-3pm in Nippon Business Institute
Equity Gap Research: Oct 31 from 2-4pm in WHI 228
Pathways: Nov 2 from 3-4pm in Rainier 227
Technology: Nov 2 from 3-4pm in Rainier 227

Guided Pathways Steering Committee and Sub-committee update

Who’s on the Steering Committee?
The GP Steering Committee had their first meeting Oct 3.  The members of the Steering Committee are myself (Anne Brackett), Kristine Washburn, Nina Benedetti, Elizabeth Stam, Masashi Kato, Gail Muilli, Laurie Franklin, Heather Bennet, Eugene McAvoy, and Megan King, the ASB president.  Kristine and I are co-chairing the committee.  The insight students can provide to the development of GP at EvCC is crucial, yet they are balancing service in multiple roles while also studying for classes, so Megan and two other ASB officers will rotate attending the meetings.  We had hoped to have an additional faculty to serve from the areas of Advising/Counseling/TriO; however, while there was definitely a desire to serve, many faculty with this expertise have already committed time and energy to other aspects of college service and simply cannot make the commitment at this time. Given the crucial nature of advising and a need to have someone with knowledge on the committee this year, we have invited Andre Guzman to fill the remaining spot, making the overall group five faculty, five administrators, and one student.

What was discussed at the meeting?
You are welcome to read over the minutes for specifics (click here to see the minutes). We decided who would chair which subcommittee (listed below) and tasked each chair with contacting the people who have already let us know of their interest to coordinate meeting dates and times.  If you haven’t let us know of your interest, that’s ok, we’ll make another blog post listing dates and times of each meeting so that anyone can attend.  At the first sub-committee meeting each group will read over the 5-year Implementation Plan to develop goals for the work they will do this year:

Advising/First Year Experience: Jessica Cain and Andre Guzman
Meta-Majors/Pathways: Nina Benedetti
Technology: Betsy Stam
Equity Gap Research: Kristine Washburn
Communication: Masashi Kato

What will happen next?
The general format moving forward is that each sub-committee will tackle a particular facet of developing GP, the chair will report to the Steering Committee, the Steering Committee will either give feedback, inform other communication partners (Faculty Forum, VP Staff, all campus via this blog, etc.) to seek additional feedback, and/or progress with the recommendation.  Minutes will be taken at each sub-committee meeting, and the GP Steering Committee meetings, and will be posted in the GP Canvas course, so if you want to know what’s up, you can always check the minutes.